I had a hard time with The Burning Wheel. I will be the first to personally admit that it, overall, was not at all my style. This was mostly due to the huge amount of effort that needs to be put into learning the game and playing it properly, but also because my game group didn't play more than twice, so it wasn't given what most would consider a "fair shot".
I shake my head though, and wonder why we had so much trouble. Even our GM, who honestly likes the system, was getting jumbled around with the incredibly heavy rule-set and nonsensical jargon.
The trouble with trying to review the Burning Wheel, and analyze it for it's mechanics, is that there's so many individual mechanics. But at the same time, there are so few things that seem to flow, fit together, or otherwise help me in understanding the next rule I needed to learn.
I love the idea of burning wheel, and when you read the plentiful amount of good reviews, it's easy to see what some people walk away from it with. But the bar is too high. I consider myself a fairly hardcore gamer (I read more rulebooks than I could ever possibly hope to play), and this is by far one of the hardest games to dig your way through. And this is coming straight after my play of Fate of the Norns.
Worse, once you're actually in the game, the book keeping quickly gets out of hand, bogging down actual gameplay to a crawl. There's functions, formulas, and definitions of every little thing, and because of it's progressive skill system, the game requires the players to be on the ball mechanically. This completely distracts me from the immersion of the game; and it doesn't work for me as a way to get integrated with my character. When I have to fight for my character's beliefs not only in the fiction, but mechanically as well, I feel detached from the meaning behind those beliefs.
Pace was a huge problem for me. We got nowhere in our couple of sessions. Sure, we explored a river, talked to NPCs in a town, and even did a little dungeon. But that was 8 hours of painfully debating with the GM about each and every skill, trait, and resource we had, and then each skill, trait, and resources that our friends had that might help. Then once a single action is resolved, we all do a couple minutes of bookkeeping as we compare the difficulty of the task to our dice used, skill levels, and related stats.
Pace was a huge problem for me. We got nowhere in our couple of sessions. Sure, we explored a river, talked to NPCs in a town, and even did a little dungeon. But that was 8 hours of painfully debating with the GM about each and every skill, trait, and resource we had, and then each skill, trait, and resources that our friends had that might help. Then once a single action is resolved, we all do a couple minutes of bookkeeping as we compare the difficulty of the task to our dice used, skill levels, and related stats.
I'm certain that characters will change dramatically over time, which is what the game is built to do. But that time is long. We're talking real-life long, which, while I can't be a noble knight in real life, I can certainly be 90% of the other mundane characters this system pumps out.
The Burning Wheel does exactly what it sets out to do: match roleplaying with mechanics. But that left a sour taste in my mouth, almost as if to suggest that I don't like my games mixed with my roleplaying...
I've heard a lot of good things online about The Burning Wheel online, but bad things about it from people I actually game with. On the other hand, my group loves Mouse Guard, a game whose system has been described as Burning Wheel lite. It would be interesting to see a comparison between Mouse Guard and full Burning Wheel to see if there are differences in either the mechanics or the way they're presented that makes the former more enjoyable.
ReplyDeleteVery cool! I have an unopened Mouse Gaurd just itching to be tried... and it's definitely on the list TODO. I'm now a little scared of it haha, but at the same time intrigued...
DeleteWhen I got the 2nd edition of Mouse Guard, I finally understood what the player's move and GM's move was. :)
ReplyDeleteSure, I've played a Moues Guard session at Ropecon, and our GM said right away, that the system is a headache for him. So he used his own version of Fate instead.
But then I'm wondering if the Burning Wheel and MG are so much more crazy than the industry mainstreams, D&D and Pathfinder? Besides that Luke has a habit of doing things differently than most others? :)
Just last week I played in a Pathfinder game, and for the first time I was preparing my charsheet without any assistance. It took me a week. Damn, why all that crunch? I'm more a fan of storytelling type of systems, especially those which fit in 10 pages or less. The treaures I've found latest are ALONe with it's wonderful randomizator cards (Game Master's Apprentice), Archipelago by Matthijs Holter (thanks to Jason Morningstar for facilitating it on Ropecon!), and of course Fiasco.
I have also GM-ed a short campaign using Minimus by Ken Burnside, and it did the job perfectly well. Without tomes and tomes. And I guess the most crunchy system I'll ever stick to will be Fate.
Let's make life simpler!
Sorry for not seeing this earlier - not sure how I missed it. But! Yes I agree, pathfinder/3.5 is way too much. Even now I really only play games of D&D 5e because I already know the rules. I'll have to check out Minimus, thanks for the recommendation!
DeleteWell, then go with Cypher System, or Savage Worlds! Light system, still quite detailed to offer nice character customization.
ReplyDeleteThen, if you want to try something REALLY different, try Dungeon World. And don't think "this is too light", it's a rich system, an ode to the fiction forward. Yeah, it has some strange jargon too (and you need to enter the "moves" system), however it's a revolution from the "standard" RpGs. With his "father" Apocalypse World, it completely changed the way I GM my games now, and the way I'd like to play almost every setting.
I agree - I've always leaned towards a simpler side of systems. I have tried all of the above mentioned and I really like DW and SW, not so much Cypher (various reasons). But, really my goal here is to explore a lot of different systems, much like my favorite podcast: System Mastery :)
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