There is a low grumble from the group of players, who reluctantly start to fill in their character sheets with the minimal stats, skills, and abilities presented at the start of most games. Each looks longingly at the higher levels, and plots their eventual growth to real power, and real fun.
Min/maxing is a term used to describe when players stretch their character building resources in order to maximize efficiency in one area by sacrificing efficiency in another. The most common example is a barbarian reducing his social abilities to get just a few more points into his strength. Or, a sneaky thief might sacrifice any usefulness in combat in order to ensure his pick-pocketing skills are top-notch. In both of these situations, the players focus on one thing they want to shine in, and sacrifice nearly everything else.
But specializing is good! We want to be awesome at something! So is this a bad thing? Actually yes. While it's just fine that players want their characters to excel in areas the characters should excel at, there's two major problems with min/maxing:
First, characters who only do one thing (e.g. I cast fire magic.) are generally considered 'flat'. They do not have that multi-dimensional mix that makes for a good story character. At first these characters are fun, but they quickly grow old as a game goes on, because they are a 'one-trick-pony'.
Second, by sacrificing usefulness in other areas, this means that it's harder to get any sort of group teamwork. If the 'enforcer' can only fight, and the 'face' can only talk, and the 'hacker' can only hack... it means no one is actually playing the same game together. They might be physically present - but they're not useful.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is one of many reasons why Shadowrun, while brilliant in setting, is a horrible game to actually play.
So how can we create a game that "minimizes", if you will, this issue? Let's start by looking at some mechanics that encourage min/maxing. The first gets back to my initial example; if characters do not feel special right off the bat, there's a tendency for players to min/max in an effort to make them special in some way (e.g. I have more strength than everyone else, yay!). Obviously this has a lot to do with setting (e.g. slaves trying to escape the coliseum vs. god-slayers looking to conquer the world), but its definitely a problem in a lot of games.
Games do this to 'teach' new players; ease them into it. But I would argue it's more important to make new players feel awesome about playing, than to ensure they know every little detail of the rules. RPGs are complicated, and they are not going to get it all the first time anyway.
"When you want to play a wizard, you generally don't want to play him as a fumbling trainee." - Peter Wallis from the RPG Brain Trust Facebook Group
Another mechanic to look at is prerequisites for skills and abilities, which can be a huge source of min/maxing. This is a mechanic that says I can have X, but only if I have Y. Well, what if I don't want Y? Why can't I have X because Z also makes sense? Prerequisites can add strategy to character-building, which is normally a good thing, unless it pigeon-holes players into only going down one path. If you're going to have prerequisites in your games at all, ensure that they are generic, such that there are multiple paths available to achieve the same end goal.
Lastly, RPGs that use XP or some other point-buy system encourage min/maxing by letting players only buy one thing at a time. Initially these systems seem great, because you can customize your character to whatever end. But this almost always boils down to players "customizing" all of their points into a single area.
Sigh... it's okay Shadowrun... we still love you.Players can help themselves by purposefully trying to not min/max, but that can have just the same effects as min/maxing! If you are mediocre at everything, you're now useful in none. This creates dull characters to play, which is rarely fun for anyone. What we're really looking for is multi-tiered characters, with many strengths and a few different weaknesses.
So I believe it's up to the game to help. Let's look at some mechanics that actually help alleviate min/maxing. The most common one is surprising "levels". Character levels in RPGs allow characters to grow both in combat abilities and non-combat abilities. Dungeons & Dragons 5e (so far) has done a great job at giving players both choice in their levels and balance in the abilities presented. Usually, there is both a combat bonus and a non-combat bonus within each character choice, including the generic 'feats' used at higher levels.
Another mechanic that helps our cause is not rewarding XP for individual situations. It's easy to pick on combat, and say that because we give XP for killing elves, the players are always going to kill elves. But the same is true for any system which uses a 'use-it-to-up-it' system. If talking to the bartender gives you XP towards your talking skills, I'm going to sit there and talk to the bartender until I'm actually good at it. A lot of GMs already realize this, and often give out an equal amount of XP at the end of any given session or major plot point.
D&D brings about balance by ensuring that the combat focused abilities are all equal in power (as much as possible anyway). They've openly declared that they do not balance non-combat abilities, as this would be not only extremely difficult, but simply not that interesting. For a combat-focused game, this makes sense, but I think we can do better.
I suggest that, much like generalizing character 'stats', that we categorize XP into common groups that make the most sense for our game. For example, we could have combat XP, which is earned through combat, and spent towards combat-focused abilities, and then have 'role-play' XP, which is earned through solving issues or completing quests, and spent on non-combat abilities.
This system balances power with utility. It keeps the power gamers happy by ensuring they can min/max their combat abilities without sacrificing some of the extra fluff, and it keeps the role-players happy by ensuring they don't have to suck at combat to be awesome at diplomacy. As an added bonus, it more or less forces players to have the multi-tiered characters that usually make for a well-rounded story, where everyone at the table is doing something no matter what is going on.
We know that we could make every skill individually level up (Oblivion style), but that'll end poorly, as we've discussed. Instead, let's just take it one step further and look at the three "Pillars of Adventure" defined by D&D: exploration, social interaction, and combat. I would argue that these are excellent categories for XP, and that if we want everyone to be useful everywhere, that this would be the way to go. Of course, we have to be careful, or no one is going to feel special against anyone else in the party...
For Hostargo, action/combat is going to be a large part (at least 50%) of the game. As such, I believe I'm going to implement a double XP system: one combat and one non-combat, to be spent on their respective areas. However, to minimize having one area excel over another, I'm going to give out a "star rating" at the end of each adventure (1-5), and give each player that much XP to work with in both categories, effectively forcing them to spend the same amount in the two different areas.
If you've stuck with me through all of this - thank you. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the best solutions, or if I'm out of my gourd on any of this. Cheers!
I don't agree specialisation makes the character 2 dimensional... The player makes the character, they breathe the life into it, give it personality and lift.
ReplyDeleteI think the genre makes a huge difference to the type of character people create, Lets look at the fantasy and modern genre's.
Looking at standard Fantasy (D&D) genre there is a tendency for groups to consist of multiple fighters, a cleric (healer), a rogue/thief/sneak and a wizard.
Then you have low fantasy settings (Pendragon/Yggdrassil/Keltia/Conan) where everyone is more or less a warrior, rogue or tradesman.
Finally you have high fantasy where everyone has magic (ars magica/runequest/rolemaster) or at least access to it in some fashion.
In modern games the group will consist of the soldier, the detective (PI/Cop) and the tradesman (merchant/mechanic/Driver/skill provider amongst many many variances).
In all these cases you are going to have a couple (if not more) players vying for the same role in the group, and therefore a need for differences to individualise themselves and stand apart from similar characters.
In a modern game the obvious soldier specialisations are the firearms specialist and the martial artist.
In D&D/fantasy there is the archer fighter and the melee fighter.
Neither of these kinds of specialisations make the characters 2 dimensional, and actually allow for way more flavour to be brought into the character by having a paragraph or so about why the specialise as they have.
Min/Max is specifically the act of looking for an exploitable character generation mechanic that offers minimum penalties but great benefits. In many cases this may be done by taking a "roleplaying" disadvantage such as a personality disorder. In extreme cases taking a huge penalty that technically affects not just you but everyone in the group - Plagued by Demons / Enemy - Dark Lord, in exchange for a huge character reward.
This is the purview of the GM and if done correctly can work really well, but when done poorly or wrong can lead to some characters getting huge (maximum) benefits for little (minimum) loss.
XP. Many game systems indicate what XP will be rewarded for, and in most it is for defeating monsters/mobs. However there are a few who move off the beaten path - BasicRolePlaying (CoC/Runequest/D100) based systems for example have skill check boxes which you tick when you use the skill and roll against at the end of the session.
The One Ring has 2 schemes, skill and weapon xp systems which is quite nice, with skill xp awarded on success across a group of skills up to 3 times, getting a little harder to earn each additional level.
Overall though the GM should award XP for whatever they wish and when they feel it appropriate. The only thing to bear in mind is the speed of improvement of the characters, giving too much can end up with really powerful characters really quickly, so its good to know the system.
For myself in general I award all the players the same XP for completing certain waypoints in the adventures/game. If one player is exceptional or achieves more that other players (whilst in character) they may earn extra XP. For the occasional players who do not contribute to any game session they would earn less XP.
Hey Fat Pob! Thanks for the reply!
DeleteOverall, I can say that I don't disagree. I understand the need to stand out, be special in the group, and more important fill a 'role' that your team needs (the tank, the healer, the DPS). Like all things, this is best done in moderation. It's usually only a really problem when it hits the extremes, like in Shadowrun, where the hacker plays his own game for an hour while everyone else just sits there.
I really just wanted to discuss a few game mechanics that help make more-than-just-one-specialization characters. I agree the GM can always take control of things, but in general GMs play by the book. It's the book, after all. Yes, a lot of GMs are creative folk that take things into their own hands anyway, but that's not really the point. If the game simply had a good set of rules up front, the GM has to do less "modification".
I doubt that specialized XP would solve the problem of min-maxing, as I know a game that does this and still greatly suffers from the problem of character optimization. (Not to mention that simply splitting groups would only move min-maxing to a new level: Each character will simply specialize in a different social and fighting skill.)
ReplyDeleteI would suggest two other ways to fight the problem of min-maxing:
1) Ensure a general competency. Each character should be capable to influence usual adventure situations on his own, even with base stats. Use resolution mechanisms that allow non-specialized characters a meaningful impact on the game.
2) The rules need to support the group acting as a group, in all situations. Usually, only fights do this somewhat, as you roll a whole lot during fights and thus the non-specialists might at least hope to roll a critical success, whereas most other encounters are solved with a single die roll, usually by the specialist and without influence from the rest of the group.
3) Ensure that any stat is useful for any character. I know hardly any system where a fighter character needs charisma, thus it is dumped. (After all, you usually only need one person to roll charisma checks usually - and that will be the min-maxed charisma specialist) Allow the fighter to use Charisma during a fight and suddenly dumping it will look much less appealing even to the most die-hard min-maxer.
Excellent points Onno! If you don't mind, what game example does this to ill effect? I know that Barbarians of Lemuria does something like this fairly successfully, so it'd be good to have a bad example as well.
Delete1) I agree - do you have a resolution mechanic in mind? Or is this something we need to think up?
2) I think this is exactly correct - you've hit it right on the nose. Do you have an example of games that do this well? Social encounters and exploration are hard to get everyone involved in.
3) Absolutely! You'll like Hostargo (the game I'm trying to make here). I include three social skills (charm/presence/empathy) that have three associated combat actions (taunt/intimidate/force thoughtful response) respectively.
The game I mentioned is called MIDGARD - Das Fantasy Rollenspiel, a German fantasy RPG that was never translated into any other language as far as I know. When I played Barbarians of Lemuria, it seemed to reward min-maxing quite a lot, at least everybody in our group strove to have as few skills as possible to ensure success in those areas. Having a +1 in many skills seemed just not worth it.
Delete1) That is mainly a problem of how strong the skill levels influence (or any fixed bonus) is compared to the randomizers influence (or any variable bonus). I like the ddd20 approach from the Isomages House but the Bounded Accuracy from D&D5 seems to work smoothly as well. You can probably can use any mechanic you like as long as you understand its statistics.
2) Trias (an Austrian RPG) seems to do that rather well. The game offers full and partial successes, you usually need to accumulate several full successes for any given non-combat task. OMNI based systems like Talislanta or Hellas: Worlds of Sun & Stone use partial successes as well and in a very similar way (in case you do not speak German).
3) How are you going to ensure that actively using Charisma during a battle will be actually beneficial to the fighter?
For BoL, I understand what you're saying. It doesn't have great mechanics because you can spend points 1:1, so maxing out one skill is much better than not.
DeleteThe system I DO like from BoL is that combat & non-combat skills (in the form of careers) are completely separate. This makes for a wonderfully simple and elegant character creation process while still producing multi-dimensional characters. Since combat is a huge part of any good barbarian story, it makes sense for the game to be set up this way.
I will have to see if I can get my hands on some of the RPGs you mention. I do not speak German, so we'll see what I can find.
The "social combat" actions I describe provide helpful benefits, so it's still up to the player whether to use them or not (unlike 'dodging', for example, where everyone is pretty much forced to use it). I guess I can only hope to make them attractive enough options that fighters will want to use them. I think that's a whole other blog post, though :)
What is Hostargo?
ReplyDeleteIt's what I'm calling the RPG I'm making :)
DeleteInitially, in Mayhem, we tried to reduce min-maxing per skill by using a mechanic where each rank in a skill cost more than the preceding one. It proved...difficult. There was a long skill-list, so we gave players a lot of points. Which some players then spent all of which in a single skill (ultimate min-max!).
ReplyDeleteDresden Files does skills much better. You get X points, and each rank costs 1 point. But it's tiered, so it forms a 'pyramid', with max height equal to the base. So get get a Tier 5 skill, you need 5 skills at (or above) tier 1.
Thanks for sharing your experience! Good to know that tiered point-buy isnt a sole solution.
DeleteThe pyrimad mechanic does a good job, but feels artifically forced. I suppose no better than having two types of XP though... hmmm...